My Response to Global Warming Arguments
Below is an ongoing, thoughtful discussion between a friend and I regarding global warming and cap and trade. The response I wrote was way too long for facebook, so I’m posting it here. My thoughts are in blue. His are in black.
Ok, let’s look at it this way…. : )
we insure our cars, health, and home, expecting nothing bad to happen… Thousands of dollars a year go down the drain for a minor probability of actually using the $ we invested… everyone supports this system.
Everyone supports this system because people have the FREEDOM to choose who they want to insure with, how much they’ll pay, or even, whether or not they want a car or health care or a home to insure.
Insuring that we avoid catastrophic consequences of the scientific communities’ projections of climate change seems like the prudent thing to do, EVEN if there is a not a high probability of it happening (which there is, according to the people who actual study the climate).
Not everyone who studies the climate believes that global warming is real. If it were real, why would CO2 levels keep going up over the past decade while the global temperatures have consistently declined each year of the last ten years? Continue reading after the jump…
From an article in the Wall Street Journal on June 29, 2009:
“The number of skeptics, far from shrinking, is swelling. Oklahoma Sen. Jim Inhofe now counts more than 700 scientists who disagree with the U.N. — 13 times the number who authored the U.N.’s 2007 climate summary for policymakers. Joanne Simpson, the world’s first woman to receive a Ph.D. in meteorology, expressed relief upon her retirement last year that she was finally free to speak “frankly” of her nonbelief. Dr. Kiminori Itoh, a Japanese environmental physical chemist who contributed to a U.N. climate report, dubs man-made warming “the worst scientific scandal in history.” Norway’s Ivar Giaever, Nobel Prize winner for physics, decries it as the “new religion.” A group of 54 noted physicists, led by Princeton’s Will Happer, is demanding the American Physical Society revise its position that the science is settled. (Both Nature and Science magazines have refused to run the physicists’ open letter.)
The collapse of the “consensus” has been driven by reality. The inconvenient truth is that the earth’s temperatures have flat-lined since 2001, despite growing concentrations of C02. Peer-reviewed research has debunked doomsday scenarios about the polar ice caps, hurricanes, malaria, extinctions, rising oceans. A global financial crisis has politicians taking a harder look at the science that would require them to hamstring their economies to rein in carbon.” http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124597505076157449.html
Considering the options… 1. It’s a hoax and we don’t act (your proposition) – we use up non-renewable resources and the world continues to be polluted… 2. Its a hoax and we DO act: Our country will have its own clean tech energy grid… 3. It’s real and we decide to act: We avoid cataclysmic consequences, world wars over resources, increased storm strength, tropical diseases, so on so forth… 4. It’s real and we DON’T act: basically 3, but actually happening!
I never respond well to fear-mongering and doomsday scenarios. Since when has any doomsday scenario actually played out? The sky has yet to fall, Y2K was a non-event, and I guarantee you that the world will still exist post-2012 (despite the Mayan prediction that states otherwise). Let me restate your options… 1) It’s a hoax and we don’t act – America continues to be free and her people continue to make the decisions that best suit them individually. Necessity (not government) remains the mother of invention, and the free system we all enjoy and which has succeeded in creating the most peaceful, most productive society in the history of mankind can continue its trek with less interference from a power-hungry government. 2) It’s a hoax and we DO act: the government confiscates literally trillions of dollars to redistribute to industries that cannot absorb that kind of capital productively therefore burning through it while not solving any actual problems. Case study: Spain. In short, Spain leads the globe in supporting and investing its tax revenue on green job creation. Unfortunately for them, it has resulted in twice the unemployment as the rest of the EU, weighing in at 18.1%. Also, most of the jobs they’ve created are temporary and extremely expensive. To create one job in the green industry in Spain, the government had to spend almost $800,000. It’s even worse for the energy inefficient wind power plants – every job created there cost Spain $1,400,000 each. And this is all in the effort to curb global warming… warming that has not been proven to be tied to anything humans are doing. 3) It’s real and we decide to act: it’s not real. 4) It’s real and we don’t act: thank goodness.
Also, you mentioned ‘unproven science’… I’m really curious what the threshold is for it to become ‘proven’…. Has that been defined? Maybe it’s 3 more Katrina-like hurricanes, the polar bears official extinction, 6 inches of sea rise, a city like Phoenix or LA running out of water, or flamingoes flying around in St Louis?!? What would it take to convince the doubting populous?
Do you know how much has been blamed on global warming? Take a look at this list if you want to understand the absurdity of it all:
http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/warmlist.htm
None of what you postulated has happened… You’re saying global warming is real because of what again? We’ve only had one Katrina. We’ve had record low temperatures all over the United States this summer. Polar bear populations are increasing… “The United States Fish and Wildlife Service is considering listing the polar bear a threatened species under the Endangered Species Act. This report details the scientists debunking polar bear endangerment fears and features a sampling of the latest peer-reviewed science detailing the natural causes of recent Arctic ice changes. The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service estimates that the polar bear population is currently at 20,000 to 25,000 bears, up from as low as 5,000-10,000 bears in the 1950s and 1960s. A 2002 U.S. Geological Survey of wildlife in the Arctic Refuge Coastal Plain noted that the polar bear populations ‘may now be near historic highs.’” The seas have not risen 6 inches. Phoenix and LA have not run out of water and if they ever get dangerously close, I have 100% faith in the ingenuity of Americans to find a long term solution without Big Brother Government mandating it. How many peaceful hurricane seasons will it take for us to believe that maybe global warming isn’t a threat? How many record low temps will it take? How many debunked scare reports like the polar bears or the missing frog legs cases will it take? How many disenfranchised scientists will you ignore until the point gets across?
People’s brains, from hundreds of thousands of years surviving in nature, are finely tuned to be hypervigilant at spotting immediate dangers, like a lion running at you, eating poisonous plants, etc. Our perceptual system misses the signals of danger when threat looms in the future, like chemicals building up in our bodies over time (cancer) or a gradual rise in planetary temperatures.
The international scientific community is virtually unanimously saying the threat is real and that we have only a couple decades before we reach a point of no return… Help me understand what the gamble is of taking action.
The gamble of taking action? There is no gamble of taking action when the private sector tackles a problem. The gamble is having a massive bureaucracy trying to organize and control entire industries that involve 300,000,000 people. Obama has never run a company in his life. Most of his self-appointed (and constitutionally questionable) czars know little to nothing about the industries they are regulating and confiscating wealth from. Thomas Jefferson once said that government should wield “a wise and frugal government which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government and this is necessary to close the circle of our happiness.” Nowhere does it say that government should tax the very substance that comes out of our mouth. The gas which trees use to live. The substance that has not been even close to conclusively proven to raise global temperatures. There is no virtually unanimous scientific community. Science isn’t up to a vote anyways! The gamble is this… our freedom, our right to our own private property, our ability to choose the life we want to live… or a tyrannical government wielding its power over hundreds of millions of people at its own whim and the loss of the only nation that has ever really experimented with the idea of true freedom.
Please leave comments if there is more to say. Thanks for this opportunity to thoughtfully debate this important subject!
James,
thanks for the thoughtful rebuttal…
I’m sensing this will be a never ending tug-of-war… we obviously pull our info from different sources. For example, I was under the clear impression that the 10 hottest years on record have occurred within the last 14 years… I didn’t realize this was still up for debate.
http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS253&=&q=ten+warmest+years+on+record&btnG=Google+Search&aq=0&oq=ten+warmest+years
Instead of continuing the he said/she said shenanigans, I’d like to take a sec and dig a little deeper.
I believe fundamentally the difference we have lies in who and what we’re fighting for… I get the impression it is the American people and their right to freedom that is your underlying mission… This is commendable and clearly your intentions are nothing but good so I’m not gonna play the ‘moral’ card here. The threat to your passion and precedence is clear… American personal rights ARE under attack right now… therefor the foundation for what established this country and maintains its integrity is crumbling. I completely understand this concern but feel that much larger and more valuable things are at stake then the American identity.
My personal vision is much more macro than America and its economy… My fight is for global health, for factory workers in Bangladesh as much as citizens here in America… with more of a universal lens, I’m discovering the interconnectedness of everything, the economy, the environment, happiness of world citizens… it’s all connected. When we fight for things that are fragmented (America’s rights or needs over others), our clarity towards necessary solutions becomes impaired… I’m a firm believer that there is one universal consciousness (perhaps you do as well with a CS background) that we share with all life, with plants, animals, and the planet as a living system. Over the years we’ve separated ourselves from this consciousness, stating that we have dominion over other forms of life. This delusion of separateness is our achilles heal as we’ve lost recognition that the ONLY thing we truly rely upon is a stable natural world… we often forget that we’re animals living in nature just like everything else.
It’s easy to look out the window and see that nothing is changing (climate wise)… it has been equally easy in years past to look out window and see that the world is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth… All scientific discoveries have been met with resistance. You first have to conceptualize that something is possible before you can believe it… Many people are struggling right now to conceptualize that human beings are capable of altering the environment. Well, to put it into perspective, in ONE DAY, globally we will: take 85 million barrels of oil out of the earth and burn it, consume about 11,500 billion liters of freshwater, contribute about 30,800 hectares of forest loss, use 40,000,000 kwh of energy from non-renewable sources, and have a net population growth of 215,000 resource-consuming people. To pretend that we are incapable of altering the planet is naive and incredibly damaging.
Another concern of mine is that your primary debate isn’t even about the environment or a changing climate… it’s about personal freedoms. If your underlying intent is to protect American liberties, like it is with many other people, it becomes quite easy to find information that justifies your prerogative. You’re not fighting on behalf of global health or universal well-being… you’re fighting for special interests! This is fundamentally flawed and leads back to my initial point of perspective…. Bigger picture thinking makes personal liberties, industrial rights, and the American Dream secondary to global needs…
…if we get back in touch with this universal consciousness, our personal liberties will actually align with global needs! (And then we won’t be arguing… we’ll be sitting around a campfire singing kumbaya!)
Ha… I’ll do a fuller response later but this is funny when compared to your link:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS253&q=global+cooling+in+the+last+ten+years&btnG=Search
J. Foss,
out of respect for James and his website I will do my best to respond civilly to your post.
1. I do not know how the Bangladeshi worker feels about you representing them… but please sir don’t think for a moment that you represent me as an American if you are unable to embrace Personal Liberty or the American Dream.
2.I do not feel a personal connection with this material world( learn a little more about CS before you put words into our mouths) Reason being is because not everything in this world is good and is worthy of a connection.
3. My fight is with people who want to take away my personal liberties in the name of the greater world good.
4. If you truly believe the greater good trumps individual liberties such as the ones given to us in the American Constitution, then sir my fight is with you… and I will win.
I’m not sure how cemented you are in your beliefs… but if you are, serious, then you are keeping lousy company( Castro, Chavez are a few that come to mind, both men who are notorious for sacrificing human lives for the greater good).
Well at the risk of offending you,
God Bless and be well(truly)
Whitney,
I appreciate your attempt at civility… you however added no insight whatsoever to the conversation at hand… you just offered defensive, vague, and completely outlandish comments and showed no effort to think outside of your own perspective.
And this perspective is what worries me… the us vs. them mentality… The my way or the highway version of the American Dream… so threatened by change, which if you think about it, is the only thing that is constant!… Again, if you look at the bigger picture, things cannot continue the way they are. Change is inevitable and it is healthy… the stone age didn’t end because we ran out of stones, much as the oil age won’t end because we run out of oil… it’s going to end because we are recognizing that new solutions are available that better support global well being… We are consuming, polluting, and overpopulating the planet faster than we can think about replenishing it… this is MY fight. Things like the right to bear arms and other constitutional ‘liberties’ from the Revolutionary War are petty and inconsequential… I have bigger fish to fry.
1. I am glad that I don’t represent you as an American. That clearly is not my intention. I prefer to represent bigger picture solutions, things like a sustainable future, social equality, the rights of future generations, etc.
2. Let’s talk CS for a second…. what is more liberal and hippie than believing that matter is an illusion and life is purely spiritual? And I was under the impression that everything WAS good, being that evil and error are also illusions… hmmm.
3. I’m confused where all this ‘taking of personal liberties’ is coming from… you still have the right to drive a big pickup truck or run a polluting factory. It will just cost you more and more as time progresses. You still have the choice to live the proverbial ‘American Dream’ but rising energy, oil, and resource costs will continue to make this vision less attainable…. but you still have choice and your ‘personal liberties’…
4A. You will win what?… I’m very curious.
4B. That is a wildly bold and irrational comment. I am a pacifist and don’t intend to hurt or kill ANYTHING, animals and the planet’s biosphere included. My company is with Gandhi, the Buddha, and other leaders who advocated for peace… Your vision is the one that is racking up the casualties, because clearly your priorities lie in your own self-interests.
James, I look forward to a thoughtful and rational response from you!
All the best,
-j
j foss,
to your credit, you make it very clear on where you stand in regard to constitutional liberties. This is the most honesty I have ever experienced from someone of your political persuasion.
Since you do an outstanding job of articulating your political ideology and global perspective, I understand completely where you are coming from. As a result, I have no reservations about telling you that my perspective is far superior to yours. And here is why:
I stand for making sure that no one, however enlightened they think they are, ever gets to take away what belongs to someone else. This includes rights bestowed upon them from God and their country… and or property that is rightfully theirs.
best wishes
Whitney
Whitney,
again, thanks for the civility in your response… it’s easy to get worked up and emotional.
Please do yourself a favor and drop the ego… there is no ’superior’ ideology. This idea that there are right and wrong perspectives and beliefs is the source of every major global conflict that has ever arisen. It is damaging and threatens any opportunities for diplomatic solutions. And clearly history has taught us that you can’t jam ideologies down people’s throats. This ‘I will win’ mentality is not productive.
I don’t want to undermine the value of personal rights… I certainly cherish and utilize mine. But if you step back for a second and look at your given ‘rights’ from a global, objective perspective, it becomes easy to recognize that they can come with high costs. For example, your right to shop for the cheapest stuff at Walmart often means that factories half way around world have to aggressively cut costs to maintain their Walmart contract… this generally means child labor, unsafe working conditions, polluting factories that spew waste into rivers, etc. Our decisions here in America have a chain of negative effects that we rarely choose to follow. The question then becomes…
if you know that your choices have negative impacts, will you continue to make them?
For many people, their answer is yes because they don’t have the courage or energy to understand the bigger system… they play the unanimous card and fight for the maintenance of the status quo… they don’t bother to step out of their comfort zone and think about the rights of half of the world’s population that live on less than $2/day.
I’m gonna take one of your statements and play with it for a second… you said you ’stand for making sure that no one ever gets to take away what belongs to someone else.’ Well, what are human’s basic rights… what belongs to them?… I would say access to fresh air, drinkable water, a roof over their heads, food on the table, fair working conditions, and basic freedoms of choice. Well, in a nutshell the American Dream (and other developed nations) are taking these very rights away from less developed nations of the world in the name of economic progress. How can you say you’re a defender of freedom when the system you support is a major oppressor?
I certainly appreciate your passion and drive towards maintaining freedoms. However, like I mentioned earlier to James, what worries me about your perspective is that not only is it limited and rather exclusive, but it is reactive and not based off of promoting real solutions. Your fight is more about preserving than creating and therefor becomes defensive and representative of like-minded special interests.
peace be the journey.
-j
… no rebuttal? I was just getting warmed up : )
-j
I will, I will, soon! I’ve just been so busy being funemployed, driving to see sister in Denver, visiting A/U, etc, that I haven’t had enough time to give you a thoughtful response… soon though!
(Foss) again, thanks for the civility in your response… it’s easy to get worked up and emotional.
Please do yourself a favor and drop the ego… there is no ’superior’ ideology.
(Stock) Really, there are six million dead Jews who might disagree. Tens of millions of others who have been murdered and oppressed because some ego maniac with a bigger army decided his ideology was “superior”
(Foss) This idea that there are right and wrong perspectives and beliefs is the source of every major global conflict that has ever arisen.
(Stock) WOW… call me old fashion. I believe and understand that there is right and there in wrong. Here are a few real simple ones. 1. Slavery is wrong! Freedom is Right! Killing an innocent man is Wrong! Loving a child is Right! Imprisoning a man who rapes a women is Right! Killing a teenage girl who is the victim of rape is very very wrong!! Allowing freedom of speech is Right! Imprisoning those who speak out against their ruler is Wrong!
(Foss) It is damaging and threatens any opportunities for diplomatic solutions.
(Stock) Remember those six million Jews? Yea the dead ones.
(Foss) And clearly history has taught us that you can’t jam ideologies down people’s throats. This ‘I will win’ mentality is not productive. Incredible.
(Stock) In your earlier post you state proudly that you are a pacifist and would not hurt anyone or anything. Please call my two sons and thanks them for serving in our army, for defending the United States of America and for being willing to give their lives for you and your right to sit on your cowardly ass attacking our great country. But before you call them (which you will never do) please call the mothers of the over five thousand men and women who have already paid the ultimate price.. I dare you.. ok just one mother, and thank her for the service of her son who will never see his own children play in a baseball game, graduate from high school or get married because he volunteered to defend your country so you could work to turn it over to the tree huggers, the UN and the French.
(Foss) I don’t want to undermine the value of personal rights… I certainly cherish and utilize mine.
(Stock) You bet your ass you cherish your rights… the rights that you would not have if it was not for America and our brave men and women!!! Think about what America would be today if everyone 70 years ago was as internationally and humanly insightful as you.. let me give you a hint..it would sound something like this.. Ich wohne in Verwendung, was mit der Bezeichnung Amerika.
(Foss) But if you step back for a second and look at your given ‘rights’ from a global, objective perspective, it becomes easy to recognize that they can come with high costs. For example, your right to shop for the cheapest stuff at Walmart often means that factories half way around world have to aggressively cut costs to maintain their Walmart contract… this generally means child labor, unsafe working conditions, polluting factories that spew waste into rivers, etc.
(stock) Really??? When these factories open there are thousands of applicants for each job. Instead of misrepresenting the facts you might ask yourself why these millions are living in abject poverty?? Again I will help you out a bit. Oh yes, they live in oppressive countries under oppressive rulers. They have few if any of those “personal rights… I certainly cherish and utilize”
(Foss) Our decisions here in America have a chain of negative effects that we rarely choose to follow.
(Stock) So you want us to believe that Wal-Mart is lowering the standard of living in these countries??
(Foss) The question then becomes… if you know that your choices have negative impacts, will you continue to make them?
(Stock) Hell yes I will keep buying from Wal-Mart. But I guess you would like to pass a law that requires American companies to make everything in America… Brilliant!!!
(Foss) For many people, their answer is yes because they don’t have the courage or energy to understand the bigger system… they play the unanimous card and fight for the maintenance of the status quo… they don’t bother to step out of their comfort zone and think about the rights of half of the world’s population that live on less than $2/day.
(Stock) OMG, if it was not for the USA these people would be living on NOTHING a day. How would that make you feel.
(Foss) I’m gonna take one of your statements and play with it for a second… you said you ’stand for making sure that no one ever gets to take away what belongs to someone else.’ Well, what are human’s basic rights… what belongs to them?… I would say access to fresh air, drinkable water, a roof over their heads, food on the table, fair working conditions, and basic freedoms of choice. Well, in a nutshell the American Dream (and other developed nations) are taking these very rights away from less developed nations of the world in the name of economic progress. How can you say you’re a defender of freedom when the system you support is a major oppressor?
(Stock) When did America become responsible for providing every citizen of the world with the same standard of living and basic human rights that we have obtained through hundreds of years of trial and error, great suffering and sacrifice..”seek ye truth.. it should cost you something” America has paid her price and Americans are reaping what they have sown. It is not our job or responsibility to do the work for other countries who have neither the will nor the courage to claim their own rights.
(Foss) inly appreciate your passion and drive towards maintaining freedoms. However, like I mentioned earlier to James, what worries me about your perspective is that not only is it limited and rather exclusive, but it is reactive and not based off of promoting real solutions. Your fight is more about preserving than creating and therefor becomes defensive and representative of like-minded special interests.
peace be the journey. \
(Stock) Live FREE or DIE)
Jim,
thank you for your ideas! Clearly you have invested interests in your perspective… I appreciate the courage your two sons have for being in the military… I’d be lying if I said I appreciate why we are fighting overseas though… I personally believe it has more to do with special interests than defending freedoms… and by having this view does not make me a ‘coward’ or ‘anti-American’… it makes me a critical thinker who doesn’t want people dying for unnecessary reasons. Also, I’m a little confused by your comment above that said ‘It is not (America’s) job or responsibility to do the work for other countries who have neither the will nor the courage to claim their own rights’… What are we doing in Iraq then??? Clearly it’s not about preserving freedoms as Iraq never posed any threat to attack us. If you’re saying it’s not to help them claim their democratic rights, then what’s left?… Special interests!
Not really following your Holocaust references… I wasn’t arguing that we need to support every ideology out there… I was just suggesting that if we try to understand other cultures better and the positions they are in would help us achieve diplomacy, saving lives, saving money, etc. Playing the ‘I’m right so you must be wrong’ and ‘us vs them’ cards is damaging our relevance in a rapidly globalizing world.
And running with your 6 million number you kept referencing for a moment… We don’t read in history books that American troops killed 4.5 million Koreans in the Korean War (3 out of 4 were civilians) and 2 million Vietnamese (again, most were civilians) in the 60’s and 70’s… combined, that’s more than the Holocaust. Again, my objective is not to be anti-American with this statement, just objectively trying to value each human life equally… I hope that you can understand my perspective, given that you quoted yourself a moment ago that ‘killing an innocent man is wrong.’
It’s clearly an uphill battle if I were to try and change your opinion to be more like mine… This is not my goal… My goal is to get people to think bigger picture with less emotion and ego. I believe people have much more in common than we have differences… by focusing on the differences, we are allowing ourselves to stay in a paradigm of hate, greed, and oppression. And I would warmly welcome a conversation with the parents of the 5,000 individuals who died in Iraq… my heart goes out to them! I hope you would do the same for the 100,000 Iraqi individuals that have died in the same battle! After all, a tear from an Iraqi mother is no different than a tear from an American mother…
…Wasn’t this a platform to discuss Climate Change?
-j
J – Lets try a different angle here. One point at a time. You are a pacifist. That is your right. Three simple questions.
1. Is there any US conflict that you would have ever fought for?
2. Why should my boys and several million brave men and women sacrifice their lives for your country if you are not willing to do the same?
3. Is there any situation where you would kill a human? For example, would you kill a man who was about to murder your daughter so you could save her life?
Jim
Jim,
some good questions… thanks for this different approach!
1. I assume you are you referring to me bearing arms and killing others in the name of my beliefs? There is no such scenario where I would take another life. I simply don’t believe this mentality serves a purpose of elevating man… Of course there are causes I would passionately fight for… any struggle for equal rights, civil, womans, gay, etc. I am inspired by the Gandhian approach of non-violence… it’s hard to deny its effectiveness.
2. Again, not diminishing the value of those who serve… my aunt is a lieutenant colonel in the Air Force and has served all across the world, including a stint in Iraq last year. She has taught me first hand of the amazing individuals that make up our armed forces… they however do not accurately represent the intentions of our military complex. It’s completely out of control… globally, we are spending about $1.3 trillion dollars a year on defense.. America alone contributes 45% of this world total! This is more than the next 15 countries spend on military, COMBINED! I believe this is not a sound use of our energy, $, and resources. Imagine what our $590 billion a year could do for health care, clean energy, new transit systems, eliminating poverty, etc. $590B divided by 300M people = $1,966 per American, per year. We’re throwing our money down the drain on an old fashioned model of defense. We cant fight terrorism with armies… it’s an ideological battle, not a physical one! This is why I don’t support our current military standings… it’s about prioritizing our values. Should we spend all our money building walls and giving this illusion of safety, or spend it building bridges that create a better world? I vote for the 2nd and this is MY fight…
You and many others will argue that it’s not that easy, that we need to ‘take the fight overseas or we’d have it in our own backyards’, that ‘freedom isn’t free’, etc. I’m not naive to the point of saying ditch military altogether, clearly our world is not stable enough for this. I do however feel that if we spent more time investing our creative energies into bigger picture solutions, our need for military would diminish over time. Isn’t peace everyone’s goal???
3. Would I ever kill another person? I feel this question a bit extreme, but I understand why you would ask it… I would be a hypocrite if I were to give you any reason saying that I would, and this would support your justification for killing others in the name of protecting American freedoms. Consistent with what I’ve said all along, I don’t intend to kill anything… your ‘my daughter or her killer’ scenario is no exception. Obviously I would do everything in my power to avoid this situation, but never would the thought of taking this man’s life enter my mind. If I were given the option of jumping in front of the bullet to save my daughter’s life, I would choose that. If this man were to take the life of my daughter, it would be a perfect opportunity to apply the power forgiveness.
A couple questions back at you:
1. What is the biggest threat you feel America is facing right now?
2. Do you feel our current paradigm (the proverbial American Dream) can sustain itself for the next 100 years? If not, how do you see it evolving to meet the next generations’ needs?
3. Do you find yourself fighting more for the preservation of the status quo or for discovering new ways to solve our current problems?
4. Is peace your goal? Do you believe it is even possible with differing ideologies out there, or is conflict inevitable?
-j
J. Foss
thought I would jump in and answer the four questions. How are ya by the way? Hope you have been having a good summer since we last talked.
1. The biggest threat America is facing right now is your ideology. Seriously, as well intentioned as you think you are and I truly believe you mean well, your ideology, a jumble of several things that range from Marx, Che Guevara and as you say Ghandi ultimately lead to the oppression of the very people you think you are championing. You only need to look at Cuba and other dictatorships that came to power on the type of social and political platform you espouse which curiously leaves out the notion of personal liberty.
2. Yes, the American dream could sustain itself for centuries if people like you would get out of the way and let us pursue it;-) What I want for the next generation is a much freer society then the one I live in today, so they can become entreprenauers and prosper way beyond anything I ever dreamed of. How’s that for some idealism?
3. I find myself preserving an ideal that people flock to this country in makeshift rafts from places like Cuba to take advantge of. I find myself preserving a country and system of government that you and other like minded individuals look down your nose at, but others have died for on the beaches of Normandy, and Iwo Jima and in Korea to preserve. If that’s the status quo you are referring to than my answer to you is yes.
4.Peace is my goal. You and I have different ideas on how to achieve, maintain and preserve it. Finding common ground with dictators, terrorists and other meanies of the world is a nice thought. Being a child of the seventies I would say wouldn’t be great if we could all dance around a maypole or run under a tye dyed parachute? But, there is one problem, while yes we may have things in common like love of family, religion etc, they also believe in wholesale slaughter of disidents and those disident’s families. Beliefs such as those over shadow any preceived good qualities that those people or groups of people posess. As a result, the only way to achieve peace with them is to show them what will happen to them if they aren’t peaceful… which is shall we say giving them an opportunity to rest in peace.
J – All I can say is that i don’t know what to say. I don’t want to be mean spirited but there is no nice way to say it. You live in the best country in the history of EVER!!! You are blessed with a religion that could have been discovered in NO other country! You went to a school that was built and paid for by a handful of very wealth people who loved the idea enough to fund it for our use. I could go on and on but you get the point. All of this has been paid for by the blood of brave men and women. The sons and daughters of parents who did not teach their children to run from a fight. Who taught their children that everything of true value is worth giving your life for. You have taken all that you have been blessed with and you mock it. You criticize America not because you have any better option but because you do not understand what America is. You say America is not sustainable… What you are saying is that you do not believe in the human spirit, you do not believe in perfect God, perfect man, and worst of all you and your liberal dogooders feel so entitled that you think you are entitled to CHANGE my country to fit your perverted, ignorant idea of some BS utopian, pick your own apples, feed the world, kumbaya, we are the world crap!!!
So why you are building green wallpaper and playing iwanabea a reality TV star, and taking great pride in your metrohippie wardrobe which by your own admission is excessive, my boys will be in Iraq fighting and killing the people that you so love. They and their brave small minded, Bush loving, God fearing, gun touting fellow hate mongers will be preserving your right to be a hypocritical, spineless, elitist.
You should go to bed every night thanking whatever God you might believe in that you were not born in any other country at any other time.
How can you be so ignorant to believe that the world would be a better place it there were no guns and no solders? By the way do us all a favor and send your local police station a letter telling them that you do NOT want any of the officers to EVER protect your home or your property. I am sure you don’t want some little girl’s father to give his life to protect yours… your life, as you in your own words said that you are not even willing to protect.
You may be a child of God, but if all men were like you there would be NO country where u could worship your God. Inflippin incredible!!! Your arrogance is only surpassed by your stupidity.
And do I think peace is possible. Hell no, there will never be peace. There will always be people who are lazy and selfish. Gangs and hoodlums. And because of that I will always support those individuals that understand the need for MY country to defend itself against these very bad people.
One last thought.. Pick the country that you believe is better then America and I will overnight you a plane ticket. It will be a one-way coach ticket.
GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!
PS.. dont respond to me until you write that letter. So in other words. NEVER!
Stock, this conversation has run its course… you’ve taken it to a new level, personal attacks, outrageous assumptions, name calling… I won’t respond with the same tactics. Not because I’m ‘running away from the fight’, but because I have self-respect and recognize that this combative mentality doesn’t promote any solutions to the ideas of discussion.
I want to quickly note that your tone in the last comment reminded me a lot of a school yard bully… defensive, emotional, crass, irrational. Trying to intimidate and belittle people is generally not the most effective way to have your voice heard… it’s a diagnosed sign of insecurity.
I wish you the best of luck finding spiritual peace (I assume that’s your goal if you practice CS) when your world view supports never ending combat and chaos…
peace be the journey!
-j
J – This will be my last post. I have spent the last two days watching Tiger and thinking about many of your comments and yes my comments also. I believe that you are passionate about you beliefs and that you care about a great many things that I also care about.
The assumption I was making before was that you were a friend to my enemy. My enemy being any one or anything that attacks what I love. I do not love hatred. I do not love fear. I do lot love slavery. And I do not love lies. So it hit me… you do not love hatred. You do not love fear. You do not love slavery. And you do not love lies. Not really sure what you love, but judging on our mutual friends it has to be close to what I love. Yet we agree on almost nothing.
So I think it best to both continue down our path whether it be peace or Truth or both. In the end one of us will prove to be correct the other will be better. Or we might both be a little correct.. and both be better off.
Have a great day.
jim
I love it when conservative, religious nut jobs start spouting off about “constitutional freedoms” and talking about preserving rights and liberties as if they had any idea of what they were talking about. In truth what you people are solely interested in is exploiting others so you can profit and further your own self-interests.
Guess what? “Owning an SUV” is not a protected right under the constitution. Being able to do whatever you want is NOT protected under the constitution. When what you do has consequences beyond yourself, and comes at the cost of someone else’s liberty or freedom, then you have absolutely NO right to continue doing it. At that point you are not a person fighting for their individual freedom, you are a tyrant: exactly what our fore-fathers were fighting against. And that is exactly what you are if you think that all the luxuries you enjoy as an American are somehow deserved and not the product of exploitation and plunder. I am very grateful to be an American, but at least I understand where my quality of life comes from, and I do whatever I can to ensure the goods I consume and the services I support are done as sustainably and as socially just as possible.
Your closed-mindedness and inability to see beyond your self never ceases to astound me. I know it is a waste of time even writing this. None of you will ever be able to even comprehend what I’m saying, much less examine your own pettiness and selfishness objectively. I doubt you’d even make the effort. All you’ll do is justify yourself with Faux News talking points and make it seem like you are the victim instead of the victimizer. But if things continue as they are and nothing is done to balance the increasingly unbalanced tyranny in this world, then eventually people like you will be revealed for what you are and hopefully brought to justice.